Richard Oliver

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Posts by Richard Oliver

• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  The other problem that you would have in order to make shunning illegal is that each baptized member prior to them being baptized is given a copy of the church's bylaws and is encouraged to read them. In fact prior to baptism the questions to determine if someone can qualify for baptism is taken out of that book. That book on page 140 states:

  IF THE DECISION IS TO DISFELLOWSHIP

  25 In some cases, the wrongdoer will have become hardened in his course of sinful conduct and will thus fail to respond to efforts to help him. Sufficient “works that befit repentance” may not be in evidence at the time of the judicial hearing. (Acts 26:20) What then? In such cases, it is necessary to expel the unrepentant wrongdoer from the congregation, thus denying him fellowship with Jehovah’s clean people. The bad influence of the wrongdoer is removed from the congregation, thereby safeguarding its moral and spiritual cleanness and protecting its good name.

  Each person who is baptized agrees to live by those bylaws.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  I know that people will say that this is a strawman argument but it is something to think about. Look at a few months ago a man in Australia was put on trial for child abuse and was found not guilty. That man was disfellowshipped from the congregation prior to the trial. So if there was no disfellowshipping then that man would still be in good standing in the congregation. So you have to be careful how you want to deal with a situation and the unintended consequences.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  And in about a year you will be able to see how a government handles shunning. It does appear that the ARC is going to add that into their report to the Australian government, so you will be able to see the political will that a democratic government has on this subject.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  If you think that a first world Democratic country will make it illegal than you should certainly try and then see if it is not struck down in the courts so you may see the fruits of your labor in 5 years or so.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  Stephan apparently you feel like you have a case if you are in the US try and Sue under article 42 of the US code. I can pretty much guarantee you would lose even if there was a law against shunning under eccleastical abstentian principle
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  At least in the US it is impossible claim to survive when you sue watchtower. If anyone knows of a successful claim I would love to hear about it. And by a successful claim the court issued some relief for the plantiffs.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  It is not just a law you would need a law that is constitutionally viable in whatever country you the law is in and depending on treaties a law that would stand up in like the ECHR. You would have to get past prior court cases. And even politically you would have to get enough legislatures to stand up to not JWs but many religious groups who would fear that any cretailing of ones religions doctorine it will affect them too, look at Russia right now, or anytime when someone in the US government disagrees with a way a religion acts. And remember the US has the most witnesses and that is only 1/300th of the population so neither witnesses nor ex witnesses have that much political power really.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  Another point looks at the US Supreme Court case of the Hobby Lobby decision. The court ruled that a for-profit company has religious constitutional rights, they went further from just encouraging people not to do an act they prevented their employees from doing an act. They literally prevented employees from getting family planning care though the insurance that was supplied with their employment. And that is even after the same court ruled that the government has a compelling government interest in requiring every citizen to have health insurance and if not they would have to pay a tax for it.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  But if you think that a legislative action can work you should try and get the requisite number of citizens to sign a legally defined petition and see if a member of your legislature can craft a law based on it.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Richard Oliver

  The closest argument that I can find in the US is Title 42 Title 21 subsection 1985(3) it basically says that two or more people cannot conspire to deprive someone of a constitutionally protected right such as speech, association or voting. But the courts have ruled that the person who is claiming this violation must pass a 4 part test:

  (1) a conspiracy; (2) for the purpose of depriving, either directly or indirectly, any person or class of persons of the equal protection of the laws, or of equal privileges and immunities under the laws; and (3) an act in furtherance of the conspiracy; (4) whereby a person is either injured in his person or property or deprived of any right or privilege of a citizen of the United States.

  In Tauvar v Bar Harbour Congregation of Jehovah's Witensses the court ruled:

  In his deposition, plaintiff does variously refer to “disfellowshipped” members of the Jehovah's Witnesses, members of the general public, and individuals generally with religious beliefs different than those of the Jehovah's Witnesses, as the “class” of which he is a member. Tauvar Deposition, at 123–124. Plaintiff also states that his religious views reflect doctrinal differences *746 with the religious views advocated by the Jehovah's Witnesses.12 Id. at 181–183. Yet beyond these general statements it is unclear precisely what is the composition of the “class.” Plaintiff simply refers to people who have been thrown out of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Tauvar Deposition, at 142, and states that because of certain doctrinal differences Watchtower has prevented “our” attendance at the organization's public meetings, id. at 145. However, plaintiff also states that the Congregation welcomes members of all faiths, including “disfellowshipped” members of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and that individuals who share plaintiff's particular views, see note 12 supra, attend public meetings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Tauvar Deposition, at 158, 160, 161–162.13

  Even assuming that plaintiff can establish a class of similarly situated “disfellowshipped” members of the Jehovah's Witnesses, plaintiff's section 1985(3) claim must fail.14 “The requirement that the discrimination be ‘class-based’ is not satisfied by an allegation that there was a conspiracy which affected the interests of the class of persons similarly situated with the plaintiff[ ].” Harrison v. Brooks, 519 F.2d at 1359–1360. Since plaintiff himself asserts that the Congregation welcomes “disfellowshipped” members to its public meetings, as well as individuals who share plaintiff's particular religious views, plaintiff has neither alleged nor presented facts to show either a conspiracy directed at the plaintiff because of his membership in a class of “disfellowshipped” Jehovah's Witnesses or that the criteria defining this class were invidious. Opprobrious epithets do not satisfy the requirements of section 1985(3). Accordingly, the court ACCEPTS the Magistrate's recommendation GRANTING the defendants' motions to dismiss and for summary judgment on plaintiff's section 1985 claim.